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Post by Eddie Love on Oct 26, 2010 21:56:46 GMT -5
Eleven movies in 2 hours? That was giving it all she could take, captain. I'm with Derrick and Michael on the re-boot, which I would add had a sensational performance by Chris Pine and effing awesome special effects. The space opera battles that are often tedious in some of the earlier movies were truly spectacular there, and gave me that pumped-I'm-seeing-this-on-the-big-screen high. I didn't care for the farcical scenes of Kirk's bloated hand, which I think points up J.J.'s tin-ear for comedy -- also evidenced on the show UNDERCOVERS -- and could have done with a little less of Old Spock who looked distractingly like Gertrude Stein. But all-told, I felt it delivered as a pop summer movie that didn't blow.
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Post by chrisj on Oct 26, 2010 23:54:42 GMT -5
I largely agree with Tom on two major points. The Undiscovered Country is my favorite Star Trek film, the send-off the original crew deserved and remains effective despite Generations. While I don't hate it nearly as much Tom, I do think Abrams' Trek is an overrated, style over substance, trying a little too hard to be hip movie. I like most of the cast's performances (except Bana, but I don't blame him), I just wish they had been given better material. And I can't believe nobody mentioned the lens flares.
P.S. Hope your crack whore's okay, Tom.
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Post by Derrick on Oct 27, 2010 1:09:44 GMT -5
Just in case I didn't get it in during the actual show: another reason I like the J.J. Abrams re-boot is because it feels, looks, walks and quacks like an actual feature film with a story big enough to justify being on the big screen. Most of the previous STAR TREK films play out like two-hour episodes of the TV series.
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Post by james on Oct 27, 2010 9:59:19 GMT -5
Just in case I didn't get it in during the actual show: another reason I like the J.J. Abrams re-boot is because it feels, looks, walks and quacks like an actual feature film with a story big enough to justify being on the big screen. Most of the previous STAR TREK films play out like two-hour episodes of the TV series. As much as I love Wrath of Khan, my favorite of the feature films, I always notice that there are quite a few scenes that look more like a television show than a movie - particularly the shots of the Regula I satellite (the camera works hard to cover up how small that set is), and the bridges of the Enterprise and the Reliant (which are obviously the same set, redressed). There's a reason for this, though. Paramount placed the production of Khan with their television division, instead of the film department, in order to save money. I don't think the third film is as good, but it does look like Paramount spent more money on it (one thing I do like is the small touches of the Genesis planet, like the cactus covered in snow). James
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Post by Erik on Oct 27, 2010 12:08:22 GMT -5
I am 100% with you guys on the reboot's attempt to want to do Wrath of Khan. Let the original movies have their own identity. There's no reason to have to go back and redo something that quite frankly doesn't need to be redone. Too many people love Wrath of Khan as their favorite of the TOS movies, which I think can't help but emotionally doom it to the fans. And given the reboot's timeline they'd have to combine 'Space Seed' AND Wrath of Khan into one plot if they hoped to try and pull that off.
There's so much there for the reboot to tackle that it's unbelievable to me that they'd try to cash in on Khan. The reboot forces Star Trek to accept 'Enterprise' as part of canon, which was something that I could completely ignore as it relates to TOS, TNG and the rest of the 'standard' timeline series's. With these movies you've got a really unique opportunity to take what we know from 'Enterprise' and what we know from everything that came during and after TOS and blend them all into a more cohesive universe that's mostly aware of itself. TOS books and DS9 books hinted at species like the Trill being present during this era. DS9's 'Trials and Tribblelations' had Dax reminiscing about her previous hosts 'encounter' with Dr. McCoy. From that we know canonically that Trill's were around back then. Other books hinted to Betazoids being around too.
So, most of the Federation species we can take for granted that they were there. I recall seeing some sort of Cardassian drink or dish in the menu Uhura looked at in the Abrams' Trek, but frankly I would their space would be a little too outside Federation territory at the time. Yet, they were there.
From 'Enterprise' we get to update and incorporate the Xindi and Denobulans into the Abrams' Trek present day. As opposed to seeing some TNG book do that and leave you to wonder where the Hell the Denobulans were for 200+ yrs in between. It's pretty ridiculous.
Which is, frankly, why I think this reboot universe would've benefitted largely from creating a TV show to act as a companion to the movies. Leave the Enterprise and Kirk to the movies and use a new ship like the Republic and a new crew to fill in the blanks that the movie cannot. Mainly, 'cause I don't see new Trek coming out following the time frame of Voyager. Ever.
The only think I'd like to see the reboot ignore is something that should've never EVER been touched on: the Klingon foreheads. It's a make-up thing. Pure and simple. They didn't have the budget for the TOS to give them the proper prostetics to give them foreheads. When The Motion Picture came around the Klingons were given their proper foreheads (even if they did look ugly at that moment) and by Search For Spock when Kirk had a face to face with Christopher Lloyds Klingon he wasn't confused to who he was looking at 'cause he was looking at a Klingon! Kirk's first words out of his mouth weren't "What the fuck happened to you?" It was accepted that this is what was.
In my mind the majority of the Klingons in TOS looked just like General Chang and Aztebur from The Undiscovered Country. And the mistaken from there after was in TNG when they made all the Klingons look the same and not vary or change up the ridges.
And I hated the Romulans in Abrams' Trek. Hate. To touch on the point brought up in the podcast: The Romulan Star Empire has always boasted having twin homeworlds of Romulus and Remus. I think that goes back, roughly, to the TOS days...but it wasn't in anything mentioned on TV I believe until TNG "Gambit". The true name for the Romulan species is Rihannsu, but I think that too is something not canon to TV. Until Nemesis it was just kinda thought that the Remans were Romulans, just livng on another planet. Like if Humans settled Mars anybody born there would be a Martian. Beverly Crusher was born on the Moon. It doesn't make either any less Human...just not of Earth. The same would be of Remus. And those ugly batfaced piles of shit were awful.
Now, if you told me that Bana was a Reman then I would've been right there with you. The bald head and tattoos would've been a great cultural division between those Rihannsu who were born on Romulus or Remus. But, why try to make sense, right?
Hell, the Romulans were smooth headed in the TOS and got ridges of their own come TNG and I believe that too was done just to show the difference between Vulcans and Romulans come TNG. But that could kinda be explained by breeding over the course of the Romulan exile from Vulcan that lead them to settle Romulus. And then 'Enterprise' screwed the pooch with that when they gave those Romulans the ridges of TNG!
---breath---
The Motion Picture's costumes were God awful. I recall reading somewhere that if anybody on the cast had to use the bathroom they basically had to undress their entire uniform to do it. And the Enterprise porn segment gave me the feeling that it was a love letter to the ship and more than just a shot of what changed.
The uniforms from Wrath of Khan are my 2nd favorite costumes, right behind the uniforms from First Contact. To me those uniforms LOOK like uniforms. They're more consistent in color by being either mostly red with using the white, or green or beige as highlights to show department breakdown...or with First Contact mostly black and gray (bulkier) with the red, yellow or blue as the highlight colors. Just fantastic uniforms.
I love The Wrath of Khan and I find it funny how with this, Undiscovered Country and First Contact that the better of the movies from BOTH franchises were rooted back to the TV show that spawned them. I think the 6 TOS movies had some merit to them all...as opposed to TNG were only 2 had merit to them. Generations was half a good movie and First Contact was good.
Nemesis died on the vine the very moment they ignored everything that happened with Romulus before it. The Unification movement (Spock would've been great there) and Sela and other defectors and we could've touched on when Deanna infiltrated the Romulans to smuggle some politician out. The Civil War that was rumored to have taken place between TOS and TNG. There's so much available to use and it ignored everything. And a transporter is a nearly impossible piece of tech to begin with...but coupled with the power of a starship and just being huge and full of sensors and biofilters and what not you bought it. That dollar sized transporter was just crap. Everything about it was just stupid.
And doesn't anybody RETIRE in Starfleet? Picard should've hung up his hat, grabbed shovel and a handful of Vash's ass and took off to some far world to dig in the dirt and let Riker move into the seat that Starfleet should've forced him away from YEARS AGO. First Officer Data report for duty and there you go...ready for a new era. It was pretty much known this movie was the last going in...why not tie up some loose ends? Give an end to Picards journey and kickstart Rikers career again? ST:6 did that with amazing accuracy and Nemesis couldn't have missed the target anymore if they actually faced away from it before they fired.
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Post by chrisj on Oct 27, 2010 14:47:15 GMT -5
Just in case I didn't get it in during the actual show: another reason I like the J.J. Abrams re-boot is because it feels, looks, walks and quacks like an actual feature film with a story big enough to justify being on the big screen. Most of the previous STAR TREK films play out like two-hour episodes of the TV series. I can agree with that. I think the worst offender of feeling like a TV two parter was Insurrection.
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Post by Derrick on Oct 27, 2010 15:25:13 GMT -5
Just in case I didn't get it in during the actual show: another reason I like the J.J. Abrams re-boot is because it feels, looks, walks and quacks like an actual feature film with a story big enough to justify being on the big screen. Most of the previous STAR TREK films play out like two-hour episodes of the TV series. I can agree with that. I think the worst offender of feeling like a TV two parter was Insurrection. Absolutely. FIRST CONTACT was the only Next Generation movie that actually felt like a movie, y'know?
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Post by Eddie Love on Oct 27, 2010 18:19:23 GMT -5
As much as I love Wrath of Khan, my favorite of the feature films, I always notice that there are quite a few scenes that look more like a television show than a movie I got a banged-up, used, box-set of the TOS films on Blu-ray and the restoration looks really great, better than I recall seeing in the theater. Also, I would highly recommend Nicholas Meyer's recent memoir called THE VIEW FROM THE BRIDGE -- great insight into the pictures he worked on and his varied career in general.
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Post by chrisj on Oct 27, 2010 21:04:09 GMT -5
Absolutely. FIRST CONTACT was the only Next Generation movie that actually felt like a movie, y'know? Definitely, it's easily the best of the Next Gen films. One of my favorite Trek films overall as well, of course, I have a Borg bias.
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Post by grubl on Oct 27, 2010 21:07:23 GMT -5
I would like to check out more Meyer's stuff.
Great episode guys. I think that we all pretty much agree that KHAN, UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY and FIRST CONTACT are the jewels of the franchise. I dig what Derek was saying about some of the films feeling more like a movie and not so much like a glorified television epidsode.
I'm probably alone in hating IV. Too goddamned silly for STAR TREK. And Kirk get's demoted? Makes no sense.
I think that Tom was right on about the Abrams' film. Not a bad picture, but hard to get passed the coincidences (most jarring is that out of all the caves on all the planets in all of the galaxies...). But the main reason that I have a problem with it calling itself STAR TREK is that it is, as Derek said, purely an action film. Every previous incarnation of the franchise dealt with high philosophical and moral dilemnas. This movie did not. There are certain responsibilities one has when taking over an established brand. Change is fine, but losing sight of the core identity of the show is not.
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Post by james on Oct 27, 2010 22:17:38 GMT -5
I'm probably alone in hating IV. Too goddamned silly for STAR TREK. I don't hate it, but when I watched Galaxy Quest (which I love) for the first time, I thought " this is how you do it." (it=knowing, loving parody of a genre) James
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Post by Derrick on Oct 28, 2010 0:51:06 GMT -5
THE VOYAGE HOME too silly? Yeah, maybe. But after the death and darkness of WRATH OF KHAN and SEARCH FOR SPOCK I honestly don't think things could have gotten any bleaker for the Enterprise crew. We and they needed to lighten up and I praise THE VOYAGE HOME in successful pulling off what could easily have been the stupidest plot ever conceived for a TREK movie.
And while STAR TREK: TOS didn't do comedy often, when they did I think they managed to hit it out of the park every time. Episodes such as "I, Mudd" "The Trouble With Tribbles" and "A Piece of The Action" still make me laugh like hell when I re-watch them today even though I've seen them at least a dozen times each.
And while we're on the subject of favorite episodes (well, at least I am) here's my Top Ten Favorite TOS episodes...in no particular order.
"I, Mudd": Galactic conman Harcourt Fenton Mudd is one of my favorite ST characters. And if TOS had went another season, Mudd would have returned to bedevil the Enterprise crew again. He did show up in an episode of TAS, though. And in a ST novel. Other things I love about this episode is Leonard Nimoy's stone deadpan delivery of the most hilarious lines. Uhura's seriously contemplating living in an immortal android body and being beautiful forever. And this is an episode that highlights a skill James T. Kirk excels at but ever hardly gets mentioned: his ability to outtalk artificial intelligences.
"The Gamesters of Triskelion": I can sum up why this is one of my favorite ST episodes in two words: Angelique Pettyjohn.
"A Piece of The Action": Another episode where Leonard Nimoy gets to show off his deadpan comic delivery. And how can you resist smiling on seeing Kirk and Spock in pinstripes and fedoras toting tommy guns?
"Assignment: Earth": the back door pilot for a proposed TV series that never happened. Too bad. Terri Garr steals every scene she's in like a old pro.
"The Enterprise Incident": This is the one where Kirk has apparently gone nuts and taken the Enterprise on his own personal mission into Romulan space. It's all part of a plan to steal a cloaking device. The best thing about this episode? We find out that Spock has a talent for espionage and can even woo the ladies in his own way when he has to.
"Whom Gods Destroy": I can sum up why this is one of my favorite ST episodes in two words: Yvonne Craig.
"The Lights of Zetar": For two reasons: it was written by Shari Lewis and I've had a crush on her since I was a kid and it's an episode where we get to see Scotty in love. Kirk was always gettin' some so I enjoyed it when we get to see the other characters fall in love or have relationships.
"The Cloud Minders": An episode where for once we get to see the Kirk/Spock roles reversed. Spock's the babe magnet while Kirk is concerned about nothing but the mission. And given a babe like Droxine (Diana Ewing) you can't blame Spock a bit for slackin' off for once. This episode is also notable as being one of Fred Williamson's (yes, that Fred Williamson) early acting jobs.
"The Devil In The Dark": A cracking great title and a perfect example of why Bones McCoy is the best doctor in ST history. An extremely well-written episode that perfectly showcases one of ST's core beliefs: that all life forms should be respected and not feared just because of their appearance.
"The Menagerie": An episode that more than any other for me shows exactly how much heart and compassion Spock has. You watch this episode and you understand so much about his character. And I never thought of Majel Roddenberry as being an attractive woman but she was mad sexy as Number One.
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Post by grubl on Oct 28, 2010 22:40:33 GMT -5
Impressive list, I'll join in:
1. "CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER" - I know, an obvious choice, but I love it. I can watch it anytime. 2. "THIS SIDE OF PARADISE" - My favorite Spock episode. 3. "THE MENAGERIE" 4. "SPACE SEED" - A worthy precursor to STAR TREK II. 5. "CHARLIE X" 6. "THE ENEMY WITHIN" - Richard Matheson! 7. "SHORE LEAVE" - I thought that Bones was dead. 8. "AMOK TIME" - Second favorite Spock episode. 9. "WHO MOURNS FOR ADONIS" - Kirk defeats a god. 10. "THE GAMESTERS OF TRISKELION"
If I could have added another (there are many more very good episodes) it would be "SPECTRE OF THE GUN" - My only representative from the third season (a very weak year by comparison, they really cut corners on the writers. Compare.). Goofy, but a very fun episode.
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Post by Erik on Oct 29, 2010 6:43:37 GMT -5
"The Devil In The Dark": A cracking great title and a perfect example of why Bones McCoy is the best doctor in ST history. An extremely well-written episode that perfectly showcases one of ST's core beliefs: that all life forms should be respected and not feared just because of their appearance. That comment about McCoy makes me wonder what Beverly Crusher would've done in that scenario. Probably pack the wound with calcified dog shit.
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Post by Derrick on Oct 29, 2010 9:52:36 GMT -5
"The Devil In The Dark": A cracking great title and a perfect example of why Bones McCoy is the best doctor in ST history. An extremely well-written episode that perfectly showcases one of ST's core beliefs: that all life forms should be respected and not feared just because of their appearance. That comment about McCoy makes me wonder what Beverly Crusher would've done in that scenario. Probably pack the wound with calcified dog shit. She would have stood around moaning; "I need more time, Jean-Luc!" until Wesley tapped her on the shoulder and told her what to do.
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